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netman
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Hey

#1

Post by netman »

I have been lurking for awhile and just joined up. I am a commercial fisherman on the Ohio River and run a 24'x72" all 3/16 plateboat for running gill nets and hoop nets. I am currently running a Yamaha F90 and repowering to a Yamaha F200 as my business is going in a new direction. I would like to build and attach a gill bracket/engine bracket to this boat before the F200 arrives.
I am looking for some pointers/tips on diy gill bracket. I have a nice tig welder and other equipment to build this bracket. I found this website looking for boats like mine to see what others have done to their boats to make work easier. I seen where Mr Morin post here. I am am big fan of him however I have never met or spoke to him outside of asking him questions by PM over on a welding website. I use my boat seven days a week all year for different fisheries. I am attaching pics of my rig
Image

here is her backside
Image

a pic of my pards boat that I just built the fish boxes and center console
Image

Thanks for the great website and pics
Netman
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Re: Hey

#2

Post by welderbob »

That's a lot of ponies for that boat. One problem is weight. To much weight in the stern may cause the boat to porpoise at higher speeds. Because the bottom is flat at higher speed the boat is going to get squirrelly.

You've got to get a a little structure in the stern of the boat to handle the loads. You may want to build the bracket more like a box to add some flotation in the stern. I'd be more inclined to Mig weld most of that stuff, maybe a little tougher with a Tig. You could fabricate the whole thing, tack with a tig and have a welding shop mig weld the rest.
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Re: Hey

#3

Post by netman »

Welder I have two 5'x2'x2' fish boxes that will have water and fish set up midway in the boat. One on each side. In regards to the gill bracket what thickness of alum would you suggest? I'm thinking 3/16 of 5xxx grade alum. I have access to a mig welder so that would be no problem. I was thinking of building the box as you mentioned and bolt it on with stainless bolts and nuts and then weld the box to the stern. I'm working up a live haul boat for catfish. I have a Sweetwater blower powered by a Honda 6.5 motor to aerate the fish.
Thanks for your input I do appreciate it.
Netman
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Re: Hey - ITS JUST KEVIN!!

#4

Post by kmorin »

Randy, they won't recognize me by Mr. Morin, I'm just Kevin here, as I am everywhere! I think Mr.Morin was my Dad? I know I'm a geezer but I sure would feel more comfortable with just kevin over Mr. ..... I do appreciate your fine and gentlemanly manners but the guys at ABB.com are fine with Kevin.

(of course they may add some salty and sailor-like adjectives about my online comments and perhaps even an occasional good natured, but disparaging, remarks about my heritage, but its always just Kevin.)

Will you be using a hydraulic jack with the new outboard? I'll sketch a mount for the work boat you show if it will help you to see a bit more about the various options?

nice fish boxes! your welding is coming right along, I'd ask you to consider acid etching them to keep them for a very long time instead of having them begin corroding from the mill scale, but they look nicely done.

I think Welderbob is right too, I'd build a hull extension instead of the Gill bracket because of the use of the boat, the commercial working boat doesn't need the top end added on that the Gill is primarily designed to achieve. By lifting the bottom surface of the Gill; the engine mass is removed behind the planing surface's trailing edge and that will boost speed on a bikini freighter but its not as important for a work boat. I'd say the flotation and planing trim of the hull extended engine mount were better suited to a work boat with a big stern hung leg.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Hey

#5

Post by netman »

Hey Kevin. Thanks for the reply. I was searching the net last night and found this picture of what I believe I am looking for.
Image

I was really not planning on using a hydraulic jack plate on my boat. I spoke to a jack plate guy about installing one on my boat to save some wear and tear on my motors tilt and trim. I raise and lower my motor nearly fifty or more times a day depending on how many set nets I am running. He said I could buy several t and t motors compared to buying a jack plate set up. However since you guys mentioned the jack it would be a good alternative to the motor bracket.
I am also starting to think that there may be a technical difference between a gill bracket and a extended motor bracket. If so I apologize as I always lumped the two together.
Our winter gill net season went out yesterday after six months and I am laying low for some R and R and this project would help me get my focus back.
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Re: Hey

#6

Post by welderbob »

Hi Randy,
I think the box extension is more of what you would want. I would make it the whole back of the boat. The 200hp is going to add somewhere around 200 lbs to the back of the boat. The weight forward is great, I hope that the boxes full of catfish and not just water.
I'd make the extension out of 1/4" 5086 to give you the weld strength.I think you could leave the s/s bolts out and just weld it. Add a few stringers from the new transom into the old transom. If you can line them up some of the frame work that is already there it would be better. I also double up the plating(3/4-1" ) were the outboard bolts through the boat. I try and add some pictures later,we have a boat in the shop at that stage.
Welderbob
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Stern modifications for outboards

#7

Post by kmorin »

Netman,
To begin this discussion from my point of view I'll show some illustrations with the terms I use so you can see where my remarks are based.
Image
here is a (GRP) hull stern that has a welded add on, or hull extension shown. I actually did this project, not exactly as shown but it did get built.
Image
same project's preliminary sketches for the owner to visualize the ideas we were exploring.

I call this an extension because it continues the water planing surface or hull bottom exactly in the plane of the original boat- so it extends the boat.

Image
here is the model in a series of views intended to show the extension of the bottom plane.

Image
sometimes the boxed extension is just a narrow extension of the hull but I'd still use the term extension because the planing area is common to the original. I know the width is not fully chine to chine but the main surface is extended so that's what I call this type of bracket/engine mount/cantilever- an extension.

Image
I understand this shape to be a Gill Bracket. That is the bottom surface of the bracket is not common to the planing surface of the hull but the engine position is still removed from the original transom, aft the waterline's trailing edge. It is my understanding that this can improve performance for fast boats but as Welderbob has pointed out, when at rest the volume of the bracket immersed is much less than a hull extension.

And as Welderbob also notes, a full width (hull extension) mount will add to the displacement of your hull, helping to counter the wt of the new and larger leg. Lets say for example the bracket/extension were 2' fore and aft and the at rest waterline were 1 foot deep. If the chines were 6' wide then the volume in a full width extension would be 12 cubic feet of displacement, and if the bracket were only 2 wide the volume would be 4 cubic feet. These rough numbers show the wider extension's volume would help the engine's flotation by a difference of [200 lb lift/buoyancy (narrow) vs 700 lb lift/buoyancy (wide)] nearly the entire engine's wt.

Hope this helps us all to get our conversation on common terms and to make a little more visually clear my use of terms. I've never worked on a Gill product or a boat with one, and I didn't bother to go to their site, so maybe I'm just showing my ignorance of their product, (?) but I have extended, added-on and modified the stern of plenty of welded skiffs for different engines.

For a work boat I agree with Welderbob, you're best served by a full width hull extension, it will gain overall hull displacement, planing area, room for the new leg without giving up deck space, and stowage for lines, buoys, and gear as well as giving a new mount for the new engine.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Hey

#8

Post by netman »

Armed with the above information I called our local metal supplier and asked about some 4x8 .25 alum sheet. They were out of the 4x8 and however they had two sheets of 4x12 .25 5052 . Price per sheet was 560.00. Would the 5052 work over the 5086 ? They said the 4x8 would be approx 2 months out if I wanted to wait.
What do you think? Thanks in advance. Netman
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Re: Hey

#9

Post by welderbob »

Hi Netman,
Kevin is much better with the technical end of the numbers but 5086 is stronger i n the as welded condition. If it were my boat I'd look for the 5086. Also $560 a sheet is a little high for 5052. We do buy more than you but were paying $2.00/ lb or about $360./sheet. Maybe I could rough cut some 5086 and send it UPS. Were paying 2.75/ lb for 1/4" 5086.

I'll send you a PM with some contact info if I can help you.You could also try Mandel Metal. There out there in Chicago ??.
Bob
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Re: Hey

#10

Post by netman »

Bob, I got your PM and will call. They priced me $3.10 lb.. The price I posted was with tax. thanks and will call shortly. Randy
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Re: Hey

#11

Post by netman »

Bob you would think with me living on the Ohio River near several barge building operations and Corn Island shipyard and coal mines and Alcoa aluminum factory that I would be able to play a little cheaper.
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Re: Hey

#12

Post by goatram »

netman Welcome.
The main reason you are paying $3.10 is your retail not Commercial like Bob.
I also did a hull extension last year on my boat enclosing my Swim step. This year I added a CMC 4" setback Manuel Jack Plate to get my new (to me) Yamaha F250 installed. The Cavitation Plate on the engine was not located properly while on plane.
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Re: Hey

#13

Post by netman »

Well armed with the above information I called my local supplier and asked what I needed to do to get off the retail pricing. I was told that I needed to set up and account. So I gave him my email address and he is sending a account application. I asked if this would get my material cheaper and he said 'oh yeah'. I have to wait a few days as the guy in charge of accounts is at the coal show. I was told to call back on Friday.
We spoke about me needing 5086 grade and he checked the inventory of their associate company in Lafayette,La. He said they did not show any 5086 in their stock. He went on to tell me that the 5052 they have in stock is a T32 or S32. I could not remember the letter as I was in shock that I might be getting my material cheaper. All this for catfish.
Image
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Re: Hey

#14

Post by welderbob »

NICE!!

5052 H32. 5086 H116 is not an uncommon material. Try asking for 5083.
Bob
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commercial fishing

#15

Post by kmorin »

Netman commercial fishing is (after all) 'commerce' - also very widely known as business (in Welder's neck of the woods that would be 'bidnuss') ; of course your commercial fishing operation/company/LLC/S-Corp. should get a commercial account with any metal supplier and any associated discounts and net thirty terms, just like other metal materials sold to commercial accounts. And if they're smart they might want to hand up a little local 5% sweetner to keep your business too.

The whole show, boats, welders and vehicles and supplies is your business so I'd guess it would have accounts for lots of supplies and hardware? All my friends and neighbors are commercial fishermen and they are all seriously involved in large scale businesses to support their fishing operations. Most of them have to feed the crews and pay for transportation too, lots of expenses in commercial fishing. :beer:

The structural issues with an add-on or hull extension are not super-critical; if you go with '52 instead of '86 or '83, both of which are stronger, (and in the welded condition much stronger) and are more expensive.

I think that your time on the rocks in a river is lower than the coastal boats, so the '52 alloy will work fine. If the boat will have rock landings or groundings regularly like commercial boats here, or were super high speed in a seaway, then I'd say the 5086 was important to the hull.

But in my mind, you're not running in rocks, just mud bars or sand- of course I don't know this first hand but I'm not seeing gravel beaches and pinnacles in your fishery??? So; the impact stiffness in 5086 isn't as critical. By going to a bit more framing you can be sure you're not going to have any structural problems and any of the 50 series will weld to the boat without any problems.

I think the first decision is: full width or just engine 'box'? Next, is the transom angle, 12 degrees is not the best in my opinion, but recommended by kicker builders, and then will you use the volume as stowage or not?

Once you have these items nailed down the rest is pretty straight forward, and I'll do a few sketches of at least one way to do this work that I've used in the past.

If I can recommend that you do a bit of research on the transom jack? I think you'd find some interesting facts. I've been involved with a few commercial skiffs and several recreational boats of roughly the same class, and I'd like to 2nd what goatram points out. The cav plate's ht. is not automatically right for different loads, speeds and trim angles. What he didn't mention is something you already know but may not being giving full attention.

What is your gas mileage when the outboard is run to low an RPM? Can you get to full R's when the boat is fully loaded and the leg is 2' deep? What's your mileage like then? I think if you took a look at the reason jacks exist you'd see it may be a real money maker for an outboard powered work boat with variable loads, variable speeds and variable outboard trim because of the first two items!!

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Hey

#16

Post by goatram »

Dang I had a good point for a discussion here. :mrgreen:
Kevin I enjoy reading yours and others posts here.

I do not have all of the metal knowledge that you all bring. I just know I like to fabricate and say that "Ya I made that" and know that it works for me.

Get on it Netman :sarge:
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Re: Hey

#17

Post by netman »

Kevin with the new motor I am going to be in uncharted waters. Going from a F90 to a F200 is going to help me push bigger loads and keep the rpms up. Your right about the rocks. There is very few to contend with however they will often jump up and test your prop. I mainly deal with mud,stumps,logs and sand. Floating debris is my biggest enemy. Both the boat and set gill nets. I would be willing to buy a set back jack plate in lieu of a motor bracket. I am wanting to be more efficient with what ever I go with both in spending and earning.
I have yet to check the transom angle but will tomorrow. If I do the motor bracket box I plan to make it 4' wide and 2' deep. I have no plans to use it for storage. However I do plan to have a inspection/removable plug to look in there every now and then.
My current motor does really well on fuel and feel that with a normal load she does real well in regards to rpm. However that is during the winter gill net season Nov thru Apr I fish for paddlefish. I have a commercial ice maker at my facility and just put the fish on ice that is stored in the fish boxes. Now once gill net season goes out I run alot of water in and out of my fish boxes that are aerated to keep the catfish alive. This stage is where the bigger motor is gonna pay off. If all I did was paddlefish I would not buy the bigger motor. This live fish hauling is complicating the operation.
Here is my better half with my winter target.
Image
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fuel use and outboards

#18

Post by kmorin »

Netman,
because most of the fuel tests that get published are done by outboard builders, the full picture is not often reported. There are aspects of outboard fuel performance that are not attractive and those aspects aren't as 'good for business' since they show the sensitivity of outboards to loads, trim, depth and RPM.

I have some experience with commercial guys here and I've seen a skiff that had a pair of 50's or a pair of 70's reduce fuel consumption by installing and running a pair of 115's, or larger. What is going on in the horsepower issue is the mass of the crank shaft and rotating parts. Marine propulsion doesn't drop resistance like vehicles, once you're rolling the car or truck takes less fuel/torque to keep rolling, but boats are not like that. The more you push the more you burn.

What does make a difference is the amount of metal you have as a 'flywheel' or cranking mass. If you take a huge 3,000 lb. 25 hp diesel engine of days gone by, that turns about 450 rpm, and compare the fuel is uses to a 25 hp outboard that weighs 150lb you might think the lighter more efficient and modern leg would use less fuel but it doesn't. Because the massive flywheel and pistons, crankshaft and marine shaft are all rotating they create a momentum that the outboard can never deliver. The outboard is rated at max (5500-7500 r's ) the diesel at 450 r's.

This is kind of like the wood router that is rated at 3hp turning 20,000 rpm gets bogged down with a small cutter taking of 1/2 inch of wood. But a 1 hp Dewalt radial arm saw, with its 12" blade sails through the 4x4" red oak like it wasn't there? What's up? The router is 3 hp the arm saw only 1- why does the router squat and stall when the 1/3 "smaller" arm saw is sailing?

Momentum and rating. The arm saw has a motor that weighs 20 lb and the rotating parts weigh 8- the router doesn't weigh that in the carrying case. The router is rated at 3hp at 20,000 r's while the 1 hp motor is rated at 1725 r's and the mass is huge- relative to the tiny router.

So, larger displacement outboards have (relatively) less work to do to push the same mass as they're moving water with a larger 'flywheel' effect of their larger drive train, when compared to the smaller outboard's pistons, crank and rods' mass.

The second set of facts is about depth of the wheel on outboards. If you've ever had a huge load on the boat, decided to see if you could get the load 'up on step' and failed you've probably decided the load was too great for the outboard's thrust? But, in many cases the load is not too great for the push/hp/thrust. That load often drops the waterline so deep the wheel can't 'spin up' and the leg can't get out of its first 1/4 of the power curve; this means you're not running a 90- you're running a 25-35 hp engine.

Most people would do well to spend time with their engine's power curve. Of all engines, even four strokes, outboards are the most over rated by horsepower compared to rpm. 2Strokes get nearly 60% of all power in the last 15% of the rpm range!!!! Even 4 strokes get a huge boost by turning up, not that they don't have much better lower end power compared to 2strokes.

So, if the loaded boat keeps the wheel too deep to get rpm, the power is simply not available, and the fuel burned trying to get some engine power is wasted. If you jack the cav plate to the surface, and then give some throttle, many heavily loaded boats would/will/do actually plane 4 to 10 times the amount they "normally can", just because of the depth of the wheel.

Where is the wheel designed to be run? The cav plate should be at the surface of the running water, or about 1/2" below that surface. What is the boat in not on plane? the cav plate is buried how deep? could be a foot or more in a loaded net skiff. If the cav plate is supposed to be at or near the surface how does it run down a foot?

Not so well.

Transom jacks are just a way to move the engine vertically up and down to accommodate this outboard fact of life. that makes them worth considering as the more you're carrying, the deeper the wheel, the deeper the wheel the hard for your leg to get out of 'grandma' and get up in the power curve to deliver some push. Therefore; if you could raise the wheel then push, the engine will turn higher -sooner- and the boat can raise up on step/plane/vector lift, and if you cavitate the wheel on the way up? just lower the leg and keep the wheel at the "optimum depth" while you 'tune up' the hull for a loaded run.

You will reduce fuel by 50% in our experience with similar conditions in salt water net fishing and hauling the catch distances to deliver.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Hey

#19

Post by goatram »

effing awesome. :thumbsup:

That is the best explanation of positioning an outboard ever I have read.

Kevin have you taught before as a teacher? :highfive:

So I need to Fisherman up to a hydraulic Jack plate for the optimal use of a large HP motor.
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Re: Hey

#20

Post by netman »

Kevin thanks so much for your time and information. I learned alot about boats,loads,hp and rpms with my 18x48 Go Devil Surface drive boat and 35hp surface drive motor. I use this boat mainly for duck and goose hunting but I do run limb lines for catfish in the flooded timber with it. I found that by raising the motor on take off I could pop up on step alot faster than waiting for the rpms to catch up. As the loads of decoys,buddies,dog and gear increase load placement was more of a factor. Then one day my dad who is well known for his drag racing/sprint car motors told me to bring my 35hp Vanguard by and he would do some mods to it. He port polished and flowed the heads. Built a smooth flowing intake. Worked the carb and built a new exhaust. When it was all done and said the surface drive has a lot more thump. This info was stored in stored in my minds mind . If you look at the picture of my boats rear end you will see my motor is set up fairly high. I did this because I knew she would be pushing a load all the tim. When I think of this 90 I bought this motor for another boat that I ran nets with. As the fishing got better I was able to afford to have this boat built and sold my other boat. I transfer the 90 over to it. This 90 was not for this boat originally. I have pictures of this boat loaded with fish but choose not to post on the internet. To say loaded is a understatement. I believe its time for a new motor. Now I'm down to jackplate or motor bracket. I am going to research the jackplate and report back.
My dad always ran a big block engines in his trucks as he said the bigger motor works easier and thus more efficient. Netman
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Re: Hey

#21

Post by kmorin »

Goatram, I've been a contractor and boat builder since I got out of high school in the late 60's so I've been a teacher to lots of people; to make my various forms of a living I've had to get the idea of what I needed done across to others..... so.... that's the only teaching I've done.

netman,sounds like you're on the right course so we'll look forward to hearing your decision about the new leg's mount on your work skiff.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Hey

#22

Post by pjay9 »

Very very interesting...I learn something everyday...perhaps I have learned a number of things this evening...going to reread this whole thread again in a day or so...I bet I learn something else. Good luck in your 'Bidness'! Capt PJ
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Re: Hey

#23

Post by netman »

Any suggestions on jack plate brands? Looking a CMC or Bob's. Thanks Netman
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Re: Hey

#24

Post by netman »

Kevin I also checked my stern using the carpenters square method. It was five inches or 20 degrees. Does that sound right?
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Re: Hey

#25

Post by goatram »

Those two are the Standard. Youtube both and Bob's has a little more info I think. I got the CMC Manual 4' setback. Reason Three rivers had it in stock about 45 minutes south of me on the day I needed it. $800 approx. for the Hyd. Compared to $265. out the door. After Keven's explanation I might try one next year. Now is the time to fish.
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