Conchfish AL 17.6T build

Mods and custom builds
m32825
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#51

Post by m32825 »

Didn't get to spend a lot of quality time on boat stuff this weekend, but I did find time to cut plate and do a couple welds to further the discussion.

First an open corner, edge to edge. The outside seems pretty good, though my line dropped a little midway across. The inside, done second, didn't come out as good, I think I rushed it and didn't get enough heat into it. Same settings outside and inside. Sliced it to see the cross section.
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The tee joint didn't go as well. I wasn't sure what to adjust, so I tried it with the same settings as the outside corner. I am guessing this is what "too cold" looks like?
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Did some destructive testing. It's funny to do all that preparation only to cut it up, whale on it with the 3 pound sledge, then crush it in the vise, but strangely satisfying.
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 All welds .030" 5356 on the spool gun, 19.5V, 420 ips.
 
 
 
kmorin
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#52

Post by kmorin »

Carl,
Looks like the 0.030" wire is good for any outside corners as shown by that first weld.  Good shape, size and travel speed and good fusion toe & top. 

However, inside fillets look like they'll need larger dia. wire?  Need more heat while keeping tighter arc length and still fusing both parent metal sides. Even then, you may not find your power supply will allow a straight drag weld ? when you have to heat up the two parent metal sides as well as an outside corner seam's mass in order to get good fusion.

Good news is the coupons didn't come apart so you're not going to have any catastrophic hull failure!  What do the inside welds look like when you move up to 0.035" wire and use more like 20 or 20.5 volts and a bit more wire feed speed?

Incidentally, cutting sections of coupons only really helps with fusion/penetration feedback when you sand/polish and etch the weld joint revealed in those cross section cuts.  The etched polished cross section will tell you how much of a root face you're establishing with the current, wire, voltage and speed you're using.

You can see the welds aren't too large and that's a good thing, and they're filling the area between the parent metal parts of the coupons' weld zone w/o over-filling and you have good sense of what is a proportional weld.  Those are good things to see as most welders insist on much more bead volume than needed or even useful.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
starbright55
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Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:46 pm

Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#53

Post by starbright55 »

Kevin, thanks for all that detail! I'm about to start my own small boat build (as a total new guy too) and hopefully will be able to turn your text into actions.

I will post some pics once I start tacking it together.

(Specmar kit, 14', 0.160" sheets, and hoping to use the 0.35" wire I bought!!!)
m32825
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#54

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

I appreciate the feedback and will give your suggestions a try. I don't have a good mental model of how MIG settings work. For a given welding setup, wire, and wire speed is there a range of "right" voltage (maybe for different situations) or just one that's optimal? Seems like wire speed and voltage both affect heat, but the voltage is dialed in to get the right arc length, so it's not really independent of wire speed. I don't know if I'm making sense, but I would like to have a better understanding.

My plan guy, Nathan, provided me with curves for the longitudinals. That's what I call customer support!

-- Carl
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#55

Post by m32825 »

Got my flat bar and gave bending a try. First attempt I clamped it in the vise and tried manually bending with leverage. I was able to get some bend into it, but keeping it flat was a challenge. Second attempt was with the hydraulic press. I laid the flat bar across a big piece of channel and pressed down into the center of it with some steel flat bar underneath. Could use refinement, but very promising. Next step is to cut forms so I can check progress towards the finished shape.
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kmorin
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#56

Post by kmorin »

Carl,
the bend looks pretty uniform but.... I'd do some 1/2" or 5/8" layout lines to insure your end product is 'fair' smooth w no kinks or angle points.

Kick or kink bending is usually done with a set of lines to make sure the pressure is applied evenly - and depth of cylinder is the second control.  First time through you do every single point to some depth- let's say 1/4" deflection, ignoring spring back.  Next time through you do 1/2" depth - and so forth to end up with a fair curve.

If the curve is to be elliptical, parabolic or some other curve- not a pure circle? Then you hold the plywood template up to the edge of the bar and mark the set of layout lines that will need to be done more than the rest- in order to end up with the forefoot keel curve of the Profile View of the lines plan.

Often you won't need much of any bending aft of the forefoot's intersection with the keel line- even if the keel has a slight upward curvature aft (say an inch or two in 10-14' ?  That material will cold bend and remain fair in that gentle a curve if you have center line notch in the frames to pull it into?

Did your designer send you 'diagonal's for the mid bottom sheet seam ? Those curves forward will be much longer radius and less rounded but will still need to be bent or cut. With all this work on the bars as seam back up- you should be able to get a fair hull from the panels you have cut.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
 
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#57

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

Good tips, they were very handy.

My designer sent files with curves for all the longitudinals. The keel longitudinal is a 2D shape, but the other two twist along the seam. He flattened that one out for me.

Front part of keel longitudinal done. Came out pretty good. Next weekend I'll get the other two bent.

    -- Carl
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#58

Post by m32825 »

Markups on flip side of keel longitudinal
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#59

Post by m32825 »

Curvy parts of longitudinals done. Need to weld on straight stock to make them long enough, then cut them into the cross frames.
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#60

Post by m32825 »

Keel longitudinal notched into transverse frames.
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#61

Post by m32825 »

Longitudinals notched into traverse frames. Need to extend the straight portion of the longitudinals to the transom and tack up the tunnel before hull panels go on.
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#62

Post by m32825 »

Fitting up the tunnel vent. The center hull panels overlap it, so this joint has to be welded before they go on. Goal is to connect this end with the matching hole in the hatch rail, lower left part of second pic.
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kmorin
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#63

Post by kmorin »

Carl, not familiar with venting a tunnel (?) but a parent metal scantling scaled TIG weld would make this weld correctly. 

Not more than the thickness as the root face and not more than 1/4 of face (throat/hypotenuse) in bulge or crown... don't distort the "tunnel lid" by over welding.... and only weld outside/bottom/tunnel side for now- you can reach the inboard weld anytime.

How does the design provide you to weld under the 'bottom' panel overhang inside the tunnel and outside the bilge? IF this pipe through hull weld is covered (?) then so is the seal weld between the tunnel lid/top/roof/upper surface and the bottom panel??? Color me confused.

Hope you'll acid etch this little skiff before she see's service or paint?

Thanks for posting your progress, wish other's builds were similarly documented.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

 
 
 
 
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gandrfab
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#64

Post by gandrfab »

Not sure the vent hole needs to be that big?
Also running a hose to a ball valve up on the console from the vent can help.
In shallow water take off when you don't want the aerated water keep the valve closed.
When running open the valve and let the aeration break the hydro suction.
m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#65

Post by m32825 »

This skiff is for shallow water fishing. The hull has a tunnel at the back to create a "hump" of water for the prop. Once everything is rigged right the skeg will be even with the bottom of the boat and the skiff will run in three inches of water. Forming that hump creates drag, though, which hurts cruising speed. The vent breaks the suction and allows the water to drop out of the tunnel for faster cruising in deeper water. The vent can be opened and closed with a gate valve. Here are the pieces that need to line up once everything is assembled.
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#66

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

Educate me a little on this part:
​​​​​... a parent metal scantling scaled TIG weld would make this weld correctly. =0.95emNot more than the thickness as the root face and not more than 1/4 of face (throat/hypotenuse) in bulge or crown...
I have 1/8" material. Are you saying make the diagonal face of the weld 1/8" and don't let it bulge much so that I don't warp things? I made a couple trial runs with the spool gun and they seemed to come out okay, but I filled the joint and dressed it back afterwards. What makes TIG a better choice? I'm speaking from ignorance, so bear with me...

The vent has a little "roof" to keep water from going up the vent when it is open and we're under way. You're right, how does one weld the vent side of the roof? No one has built a tunnel version of this hull before, so new territory. Maybe leave a gap between those pieces, use a backer plate and weld it from only the outside?

I plan to acid etch it. I like the white metal look for the hull but want something light/matte/non-skid for the deck and cockpit. I don't want the deck/cockpit to reflect a lot of sun or get too hot for bare feet.

    -- Carl
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#67

Post by m32825 »

gandrfab wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:20 am Not sure the vent hole needs to be that big?


 
Thanks for supplying context for the vent in your reply. I forget other people don't know what I'm doing. Heck, sometimes even  I don't know what I'm doing!  
 
The tunnel and vent are new to the aluminum incarnation of this hull. The dimensions of the tunnel are well tested in non aluminum alloy builds, but this implementation of the vent is new. The original tunnel concept used 1" pipe to vent, but it had structural support all the way and no valve. This approach has a valve and it's "floating", larger pipe provides more structural support. That said, the design called for 2" pipe (and I have a piece of that) but it seemed like overkill, so I went with 1-1/2" pipe. I agree that the vent is bigger than it needs to be, the viscosity of air being so much less than water. I bet it will vent with authority!
 
kmorin
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#68

Post by kmorin »

Carl,
TIG beads can be scaled on the fly, the wattage (amperage) control is a pedal or knob on the torch, the arc length and therefore arc cone width can be adjusted by both the tungsten grind and the length of the arc held so the puddle size can be as small as needed to keep from over contraction of the welded area.

The vent pipe is 'out in the field' not along an edge where the parent metal's adjoining pc might help resist contraction- so I was advising a TIG weld so you could put the smallest weld cross section on the end of the through hull to tunnel plate as possible.  However, if you're clean enough with your MIG bead (?) it will work - I'd just expect that weld to end up with a significantly larger cross section of weld added... so more contraction.

I was suggesting a weld that didn't overhang above or below the parent metal- so not more than 1/8" vertically and 3/16" of pipe wall- not overhanging inside the pipe.  Then, if both legs of the weld were scaled to parent metal- full-face fusion but not more.... .then don't go slow and crown up that weld... so recommended a very slight crown too.  Just encouraging you to use TIG for more control and to get a smaller final weld- to reduce anticipated cupping of the tunnel 'roof'.  If you've tested & practiced w MIG, and feel you can get a good weld in there??  Good to go.

As to welding sequence- I'd suggest you consider trimming the bottom to meet the tunnel top panel in a single seam. Weld it both inside and out- then go back and put the 'cover' over the leading edge and cover the vent pipe through-hull.  That allows the welding to be complete and the 'cover' to be added after all is final welded. If you decide to do this (?) then skip the vent weld until the tunnel top plate is welded on all sides inside and out... that would reduce distortion the most with the sides of the plate/panel/sheet all tied in to the adjoining panels/plates.

If you're rigging up the vent with a gate valve then you can 'tune' the volume by feathering the valve open & closed... so vent size isn't necessarily a problem; although I'm not familiar with venting tunnels.  Only done a couple 'tunnel' hulls and they weren't outboard skiffs.

Hope this clears up my welding remarks, glad to hear you're etching the skiff- they sure last longer!

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

 
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#69

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

I appreciate the explanation, that makes sense. I like your assembly suggestion and will circle back on the vent/cover welding.

Next up is fine tuning the longitudinals and putting them in place. I'm not confident they are placed accurately enough enough to leave a 3/16" gap between panels, but 1/8" should be no problem. What kind of bevel should the panel edges have? The center panels near the bow are going to be pulling hard, how thoroughly should the longitudinals be affixed?

-- Carl
 
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#70

Post by kmorin »

Carl,
First, the tunnel weld sequence; the 'bottom extension' over the vent through hull opening won't hurt hull integrity and since it facilitates welding sequence and getting a full inside outside weld done... its really the only way given the shapes' intersections and the vent.  Waiting to weld the vent will allow you to minimize tunnel top distortion and still seal the hull well.

Next, the longs should be tacked into the top of their slots in each x-verse frame with a hot single tack (or if not hot; double dime) to make sure the lower edge can be bent/pushed/fitted to the inside of the hull seam as back-up. The points along these seams that are more critical are farthest from the x-verse frames & the first of the two hull plates will need to be tacked to the longs' edge in order to make sure they hold as fair lines along each seam.

I'd bevel the under sides (OUTER EDGES of the seam as the hull sits now) of each of the three seams that are backed by longs at least 30 degrees but 45 is fine as well if you can bevel with good control.  The issue is the type of weld and that weld's native characteristics regarding a U or V grooved seam type.  MIG will arc to the nearest 'shoulder' of parent metal. SO, beveling wider is better there... however, with that said; it will be imperative to have a full seam back up- even if only 1/8" wide- otherwise a hot single pass 'drag type' weld as shown in your previous examples may burn through and leave a hole to patch- or not fuse the back/lower/bottom of the longs and therefore compromise the weld seams' integrity?

SO: while beveling the sheet edges that will adjoin the long seams bottom edges- it is critical NOT to have the bevel create a cut long the inside (bilge side) of each sheet which is your tack up and build reference.  IF the inside edges are cut while beveling the outside edges: the seam will not be fair when tacked to the backing longitudinals OR will leave a natural gap and burn-through spot!!

The keys to the weld are prep, tack up and bead/power supply settings.

The sheet edge needs to be fair and your mtl is NC cut so we can assume fair edges.  May need to drag a Vixen file or hand sand the edges depending on 'dross' from the machine cutting process??  The longs need to be tacked to the keel first one side then the opposite- if the tacks are done while the hull is inverted then each tack will need to be meticulously dressed.  (https://www.glenlforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 7&start=30)  That will allow the second/matching/opposite hull panel to be installed and tacked w/o bulge/interference/distortion from the original tack set AND lay fair to the future weld joint.

These two middle bottom panels will not need 1/2 as much bevel in the forefoot curve forward. There, the two panels' angle of incidence/joining/meeting is much steeper (by hull shape) so as the sheet's edges' are at greater angle outward; the bevel there can be 1/3 the sheet thickness @ say 30 deg.  All that is needed there, to get fully fused root on the longitudinal and to take up both inside edges of the interior bottom panels, is to 'knock off' the edge of the sheets as they adjoin the keel joint.

However, further aft, the joint will from a pretty square U shape- and the arc will run to the top two edges and not fuse down inside to the back of the long.  Therefore the bevel will need to be more of a 45 so the MIG arc will be able to fuse the long into the joint.

The longs' tack up should be done to each frame at the top (upper when hull is keel down or upright) to allow a firm point of contact with the x-verse frame but not to weld the long to the x-verse- yet. 

Each of the inner panels' sheet edge would be clamped to the long at the keel first one side, then tacked along that long. As mentioned those tacks need to be small hot and dressed before adding the opposite panel.  Since you're not able to weld inside the bilge yet the tacks will be outside/underside/bottom of the hull which is upright.  I make tacking and arc cone remarks in this post linked... might not be the correct page but will lead to the description of the weld prep I'm inferring.  I think the sketches will help make a better explanation that writing?  For your use of these images the vertical green bars shown would be equivalent to your longitudinals and the horizontal mtl your bottom plate/panels/sheets.

Don't tack or weld to the x-verse frames until the entire long keel seam is tacked... I'd suggest tacks at the forefoot @ 2-3" OC and 4-6" OC aft in the straighter run of the keel.  Same would be true of the outer hull panel when you move out to that seam. There if more sheet stress forward where the 'orange peel' trimmed panels are pulled inward to the bow shape- so more tacks hold the mtl. more firmly without and kinks/hogs/angle points.

For the tack welds, unless your PS provides tack weld timing/programming? I'd suggest hotter than a weld setting and higher wire feed speed in order to get a good fusion from a tack weld that can remain when that tack is dressed off in prep for further tacking or final welding.

Welding this type of backed up, beveled open seam is not really widely practiced so testing/mocking up/simulation coupon welds are very important.

Hope this helps with the methods that will work to bring your hull's panels together successfully and in sequence? If not? Pls post your questions so I can clarify my writing.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK



 
 
 
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#71

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

Haha, now that is a post my friend! I need another day to digest it properly. I got turned around in all the up to and down references, when I weld the longitudinals into the x-verse frames, where am I placing the hot tacks?

    -- Carl


 
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#72

Post by kmorin »

Carl,  trying to use words to describe the process isn't necessarily the most efficient... apologize for the density of the post.

Trying to make sure you see a completely clear, linear and logic sequence to building the skiff as I think of it. Don't mean to be too long & wordy but... I guess I'll have to get back in the habit of illustrating the remarks?

The tacks of the longs, before any other steps, are at the eventual top of each notch.  Said another way, the notches are vertical with their eventual upper end - down; for now.

That is where the (first) tacks go; good, hot, single tacks, or double dimes if your power supply's open circuit voltage (initiation voltage) is too low to get a single dime hot tack that will hold the flat bar in place.  This will allow you to keep the (longitudinal) bar from deforming along its length when tacking in place. 

I'd try to avoid welding the new longitudinal bars/seam back-ups until the entire skin/sheathing/hull plating is on.  Otherwise the vertical welds- on both sides would tend to 'kink'/hogg/bend/distort the bars along their lengths and that could translate into rippling/corrugating the bottom panels since the edges of those panels will be tightly aligned to the longitudinal bars.

Tacks of the longs are at their current lowest point of contact with the x-verse frames.

Hope this is making sense??

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK



 
 
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#73

Post by m32825 »

Kevin,

Your post is great the way it is. Don't worry, I'll ask questions when I'm not clear on something. I appreciate your clarification and conveying the "why" behind it as well. I'm going through the beveling/dressing thread you linked to now.

-- Carl
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#74

Post by m32825 »

Control knob and extension. Will trim to length later, I've got plenty to work with! I don't know if I like the shiny look, seems like it would reflect the sun back at you from any angle, will probably scuff it up for a matte finish.
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m32825
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Re: Conchfish AL 17.6T build

#75

Post by m32825 »

Trimmed the vent roof off, will circle back once the hull seams are welded.
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